At one point on the set of Fleishman Is in Trouble, filmmaker Robert Pulcini approached creator Taffy Brodesser-Akner and asked her how it happened, exactly, that this show about divorce and struggling marriages managed to have two married couples directing almost every episode. “Well, I’m a child of divorce,” Brodesser-Akner replied, per Pulcini. 

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It’s no coincidence that two of the most prolific, acclaimed spousal directing teams are behind Fleishman. Pulcini and his wife of nearly 30 years, Shari Springer Berman, have traveled in similar circles as the series’ other directing team, Jonathan Dayton and Valerie Faris. The latter couple had initially been brought on to helm the entirety of Fleishman, before they realized they needed to split things up; best known as the filmmakers behind the Oscar-winning Little Miss Sunshine, they enlisted Pulcini and Springer Berman (American Splendor, Things Heard and Seen) for a new kind of partnership—experimental for both the whole foursome-directing thing and the fact that they’d split up the show roughly equally as executive producers. (Combined, they helm seven of the eight installments, with The Half of It’s Alice Wu taking on episode two.)

Fleishman Is in Trouble, which tells the story of a bitter divorce between a doctor (Jesse Eisenberg) and a talent agent (Claire Danes), and the fallout that follows the latter’s disappearance—as well as the simultaneous reemergence of an old acquaintance, Libby (Lizzy Caplan), in a strained marriage of her own—marks some of the best work that both directing pairs have done. The FX series, adapted from Brodesser-Akner’s novel and dropping weekly on Hulu, is playfully cinematic, reflecting all four filmmakers’ proven feel for thorny relationship dynamics and intimacy. Vanity Fair gathered all four over Zoom to talk about how they pulled it off—and just how much being in a couple mattered when it came to exploring a devastating (fictional) breakup.    

Vanity Fair: So how did this all come about?

Valerie Faris: It was in the spring of 2021 when we first read about the project. We actually read the treatment before we read the book. But we really loved the writing and just fell in love with the idea of this series, the structure. And we'd never done anything with voiceover before, so we were just excited by that. That did end up being one of the bigger challenges. And at that time, I think they thought we would do all eight [episodes].

Jonathan Dayton: We knew that was impossible and then we had a short list of directors, and when we heard Bob and Shari might be a possibility, we were like, You've got to grab these guys.

Faris: I think they took on probably more than they bargained for.

Robert Pulcini: [Laughs] We were directing the finale of WeCrashed and we were working with the DP who shot [Fleishman], Corey Walter, on that show. So I was hearing a lot about Fleishman Is In Trouble, and I was hearing about Taffy, and I was hearing about John and Val because here's Corey who's bouncing between these two married couples, and I was like, Wow, that sounds really interesting. And then we got the call.

Shari Springer Berman: I should say that John and Val are kind of part of our lives. Over the years, we got to meet and know each other at events and things. Many people are like, you guys are the East Coast's John and Val. [Laughs] They might have heard they were the West Coast's Bob and Shari! And aside from being huge, huge fans of their work across the board, we were just fascinated by the fact that there was this other team that seemed to be out there doing great work and reminding people of us in so many ways. 

So how did you split the work and settle on a cohesive tone?

Springer Berman: I remember we had our first Zoom with meeting Taffy and Sarah Timberman and John and Val. John said, “We're looking for partners.” I remember that really clearly because that's not always the case when you come in as a director in the second block of a series. A lot of times people are looking for people to just pick up where they left off and not rock the boat. John and Val were like, no, we really want you to be a partner in every aspect of this. Which was a little bit scary, but also very cute.

Faris: Each episode is its own kind of animal. So it wasn't like, here's how you do these, here's how it's done. Each one needed its own kind of invention. To be able to talk about what was working and be able to show early cuts to Bob and Shari and get feedback, it kind of spoiled us. It's like having partners that really understand on so many levels.

Springer Berman: Yeah, we had a shorthand really quickly. Immediately we could just text each other a few long ideas. And aesthetically we really shared the same perspective.

Dayton: It was funny because I felt like we developed the same shorthand that Val and I have between each other, where few words are all that are required to understand a glance. [Laughs]

Can you more specifically get into what those conversations looked like, in terms of the show’s visual language—how that sensibility evolved over what the show would look and feel like, and how you aligned there?

Dayton: We knew we had this voiceover and our initial thought was it was going to free up the camera and that we could move the camera in ways where we didn't have to sit on someone's face as we told the story. But then we had to figure out how to efficiently find a shot that would allow us a certain level of visual stimulation, but not so much that you couldn't follow the very— 

Faris: —Dense.

Dayton: Dense, and wonderful, VO. We came up with this idea of what we call the writer's view, where you would be in a sequence at ground level and involved with what was happening, and then we would cut to a shot. 

Faris: Kind of an omniscient…You know the illustrator, Chris Ware? It's based on his New Yorker covers and his illustrations. They're always at a slightly high angle looking down and not square, but a little off. It was a hint also at the fact that this all was being told by—there was someone outside the story who was going to become [central]. She obviously is a character in this show, but we like the idea that if you look back at it, she was telling the whole story from her point of view. And it was really fun to see what Bob and Shari did in their interpretation of these things. The other big thematic thing was this idea that's throughout the book of, How did I get here? And so that felt to us, your world being turned upside down. That just was a simple idea of turning the camera upside down.

Pulcini: It was such an epiphany for us when we finally got to see a rough cut of the pilot, because we were already deep working, kind of hearing about what they were doing. We were like, Wait, what? We felt weighed down by the voiceover too, but these guys saw it as an open door to liberate the camera. It’s what they did in silent movies, and then they got to talkies and everything just suddenly had to stop. It reminded me, Wow, the voiceover actually is giving them an opportunity to make this even more cinematic. That was really, really inspiring to Shari and I.

Springer Berman: I always found that, working as a couple, there is a weird family environment when it works. You're like mommy and daddy or whatever. [Laughs] Having John and Val and Taffy, who's just the warmest person on the planet—maybe the most open and warm and honest and loving person, who brought that to this whole show—it was at times an extremely dysfunctional family and at times a very functional family. But it did really feel like a family.

Faris: I'm sure you guys experienced the morning where you got the sides and it had pocket dialogue.

Springer Berman: Oh, oh, every week.

Can you describe that for me? 

Faris: So pocket dialogue is what you're going to be watching when the voiceover comes in. It's what goes underneath the voiceover, but typically, the actors would go, Oh my God, we have to learn all this now. And they would. And then often, the pocket dialogue was so good that you'd end up using it! Taffy could also write something on the set in the moment—she's really amazing and prolific.

Springer Berman: I remember shooting scenes—and this doesn't happen that often—where the actors afterwards would be like, “That was just such amazing writing.” They were blown away by the writing themselves after having performed it.

Coming in as couples, given the material, I’m curious about how you then experienced this material—both personally and whether you had any insight into the show’s dynamics? 

Dayton: We did very short rehearsals that ended up being extremely valuable in aligning these couples. It's funny, because we were just talking to an actor at a dinner party, and he was talking about a movie he was doing where he came onto set and met his “wife” for the first time. I mean it was actually his set wife. [Laughs] And just “1, 2, 3, go!” They had to just suddenly perform as husband and wife.

Faris: The ending of the book and of the series, people had different takes on what happened next after the ending, and it was very interesting to get Jesse and Claire’s takes—in the rehearsals they both revealed what they thought happened next. We had them write their answers; we do a series of questions and they write their answers and then read them to each other and they both answered [the same way]. In their answers and in this one rehearsal, it felt like they both kind of had a similar grasp of the relationship.

Dayton: To go back to your question, with early rehearsals and then the intelligence and instincts the actors brought, they kept the continuity as much as the four of us. They really understood their characters and came extremely prepared.

Faris: Bob and Shari, you have what I would call from my perspective a very good relationship, and you have to work together. [Laughs] The four of us I think are in good relationships, are dealing with material here that is about a failed relationship or challenging aspects of relationships.

Pulcini: I asked Taffy, How did you end up with these two sets of married directors on this? And she's like, Well, I'm a child of divorce, so it was really important to me. That was a very brief answer and I think she found a certain comfort in it, in dealing with this material. But it's funny, I guess I didn't always see this as a story about divorce. Or it certainly breaks the mold for me of these divorce examinations. For me, it was more about a very particular time in your life where you're looking backward and looking forward and realizing part of your story's written.

Springer Berman: A lot of our episodes focus on the marital issues between Libby and her husband Adam, who is played by Josh Radnor. The growing pains of their marriage. I just think that there is so much truth and specificity in these marriages. Every marriage has its challenges. Even if you don't wind up divorced or separated, you will have a fight that is probably not that different from a fight that Rachel and Toby had, or you will have a resentment that is not that different.

Pulcini: There's also a lot in the show about how career paths separate couples in a way. I guess I'm speaking for you guys, but that's not something we can really identify with because one of the advantages of being on a career path together and being partners is that you really experience those emotions of roadblocks, to projects or things not happening the way you want them to. All of those things which I think other people bring into the marriage from their workplace. We go through it together. 

Faris: It reminds me of being on a rollercoaster. It's like we're in the same car, as in the marriage. There are couples in front and ones in the back and just you go through the rollercoaster ride together.

Pulcini: And sometimes it's the burden of having to download that. It's so hard to sometimes describe what you've gone through in the course of the project.

Dayton: I don’t think any of us have ever said to the other, “Honey, how was your day?”

Faris: Thankfully. I'm glad I don't have to hear about somebody's horrible day every day. We can put that aside.

This interview has been edited and condensed.