COLUMBUS, Ohio -- Which former Ohio State football player best exemplifies what it means to be a Buckeye?
That’s what we’ll spend the next week trying to figure out with the help of the Buckeye Talk Subtext subscribers. Over 150 people were considered but only 32 could make the official bracket as Stephen Means, Stefan Krajisnik and Andrew Gillis discuss some of the greatest players in history.
But this isn’t about just being the best. It’s about telling the story of a program and who we can’t tell that story without.
That continues with Part 2 of our Sweet 16.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Stephen Means (00:03.762)
Welcome back to Buckeye Talk. I’m Stephen Means, that’s the final Christnik and that’s Andrew Gillis. We continue on, we march on through our bracket, our Woody Hayes, greatest Buckeye bracket. We are in the Sweet 16 yesterday. We talked about the Jim Trestle in the Ryan Day regions of the Sweet 16. Today we talk Paul Brown and Urban Meyer regions of the Sweet 16. And those games are number three, Eddie George versus number 19, Chick Harley.
Number six, Orlando pace versus number 11, Mike Dawes, number four, Chris Spellman versus number 13, Theodore again, Jr. And number five, Joe Thomas, Barrett the fourth versus Braxton Miller and drama. Stephon picked the first matchup yesterday. I’ll let you pick the first one day where you want to start.
Andrew Gillis (01:22.848)
Let’s go see a door.
Stephen Means (01:24.422)
Theodore Theodore you fast man Theodore Theodore Theodore I cannot believe you got hurt in that 2006 National Championship game because it felt like that game against Florida 41 to 14 they lost Ted Ginn was like hey we have a Ted Ginn and Then now we don’t have a Ted Ginn in Florida said it’s okay. We have 11 Ted Ginn’s Speed is king here
Andrew Gillis (01:48.936)
Hey, look at this guy we have and then Florida going, that’s cute. Look at these guys we have that are almost as fast or just as fast as Ted Kinn.
Stephen Means (01:53.49)
Yeah.
Stephen Means (01:57.17)
And Jim Trestle went, yeah, we gotta get some more Ted Ginsburg here. And then Urban Meyer came in and looked around and said, yeah, I gotta get some more Ted Ginsburg here. And then Ryan Day took over and went, yeah, I got plenty of Ted Ginsburg. What’s some more Ted Ginsburg? What if we just had a revolving door of Ted Ginsburg juniors? So much so that one Ted Ginsburg had to go to Alabama and he ends up being a first round draft pick. And it’s okay, cause we got another Ted Ginsburg junior, Theodore Ginsburg Jr. Stefan.
wide receiver from 2004 to 2006. He’s still probably the fastest player this side of 2000s to play at Ohio State. And he’s going up against Chris Spielman linebacker from 1984 to 1987. Here are his credentials.
Unanimous All-American in 1987, Consensus All-American in 1986, First Team All-American in 1985. So he just kept getting better and better at the All-American level. Lombardi Award winner and Chick Harley Award winner in 1987. He’s also a three-time All Big Ten recipient. While Ted Ginn Jr. was First Team All Big Ten in 2006. So if we’re just simply talking about accolades, I guess we can start there. This is not a competition at all.
It’s Chris Spielman and his like bag of things and accolades and team success and Michigan success. And that’s not saying Ted doesn’t have Michigan success, but it’s just everything about Chris Spielman is like, I might be the best player in this program’s history if we didn’t have a two time Heisman Trophy winner here versus a guy who was so fast, so fast that he is the 13 seed in a bracket like this.
Stefan Krajisnik (03:42.626)
Yeah. I mean, he has, he has a three time first team all American. that, is something, there too. It’s, it’s decent accolades too, but yeah, this is a, this is a competition where it’s. Aura is maybe going to make up some of Ted Ginn Jr’s argument. Whereas like you said, accolades and on field success and things of that nature. You Chris Spielman is going to be probably the one with the edge there. mean, outside of Dick Buccus, he might be the best linebacker in big 10 history.
Which is saying something. So that that’s definitely significant. There’s a reason he’s the four seed in this tournament. So if you look at this and you say not even a competition, I understand where you’re coming from, but then that aura thing comes in, man. It’s like, there’s something about Ted Ginn Jr. Where he gets brought, he like, he gets brought up in Ohio state circles a lot. Like you have any conversation about Ohio state history and people love bringing up Ted Ginn Jr. Because of just how electrifying he was, how fun he was to watch.
Stephen Means (04:34.098)
you
Stefan Krajisnik (04:42.094)
Along with the success that he had, right? Like, it’s not like he came in here and they won three games every year and he was just kind of a, uh, uh, an, uh, an outlier in terms of how good he was on that team. But there’s something about a guy like that where you think about the NFL, like you talk about bears history, like Devin Hester gets brought up every time he hardly did anything at receiver, but his potential as a returner was so electric. It’s like, just, it, when you do something in that phase of the game,
Stephen Means (04:51.911)
Yep.
Stephen Means (05:05.49)
Yeah, dude.
Stefan Krajisnik (05:12.174)
along with having some success at receiver, which said good junior did have, you’re just a player that guys can’t get out of their mind. Fans can’t get out of their mind. And I think that’s why there’s even a little bit of a discussion here. Cause I think most guys outside the top 12 probably don’t have much of an argument with Chris Bielman taking junior is one of those just because of how electrifying he was and how much he kind of sticks in the fan in the, in the mind of fans.
Stephen Means (05:39.802)
Is that enough to get you out of the sweet 16 though? Andrew is how you made me feel watching you play football enough to get you out the first round and for the record if there is another thing that Ted Ginn has over Chris Spielman, it is Michigan because Ted again never lost to Michigan. I don’t think and Chris Spielman went I think two and two against Michigan yet two and two against Michigan.
Andrew Gillis (05:59.337)
Mm-hmm.
Stephen Means (06:09.35)
He won in 1984, lost in 85 and 86 and won in 87 while Ted Ginn Jr. Went. Yeah, cause he got there the year after the last time Ohio State lost to Michigan before this recent run.
Andrew Gillis (06:23.648)
Yeah, it’s close. Look, we’re all of generally the same age, like, I’m 28. We’re all kind of in that same ballpark. There’s a YouTube video that if you’re of our age, you probably remember. It was a youth football player named Cody Paul, who had a great like pop learner highlight tape and
It’s one of those things that people will look at and it’s like, and that’s a great reference, by the way, for anybody listening who just got that. So I’m going to pat myself on the back for that one. But it’s like the Tavon Austin highlight tape. Ted Ginn’s like right there with just like, you go look, like there was a clip that resurfaced. I think Ted Ginn like reposted it where he had a kick return against Minnesota at the Metrodome. And, you know, he said like track over weight room.
It looks like he’s not trying. And he blew by everybody on the field. And I think Brad Nestler was the announcer and Ted Ginn got a crease at like his own 25 and Nestler was like, he’s gone. Like everybody knew. And I think those kind of highlights and those kind of moments matter for a lot of people. Right. Like.
I remember the, the fiesta bowl against Notre Dame. Notre Dame just had nobody on the field. It was anywhere as fast as Ted Ginn and there was nobody that could keep up with him. And even Florida, you know, that national title game, like it, it really, when, when you, when you break it down, he is one of those guys where maybe more than anybody on this list that I think you have to have that conversation of man.
Does vibes matter? Like is vibe? Is that what I’m going to make my pick on? So I think it’s enough. Personally, I wouldn’t pick him. I would pick Spielman, but I do understand the people that are saying, you know what Ted Ginn was the most electrifying Ohio State football player I have ever seen. And like, frankly, he’s not in the same category as Jeremiah Smith, just in terms of like the type of player that they were.
Andrew Gillis (08:47.242)
Cause like Ted Ginn was a burner and Jeremiah Smith is much more technical and he’s much more physical.
Stephen Means (08:51.324)
And that’s the point. It’s not about the type of talent. It’s just like that type of, this is what an NFL package looks like if you just need it.
Andrew Gillis (08:59.162)
Right, right. Imagine if you took an NFL receiver and put him on Ohio State. That’s Jeremiah Smith. Ted Ginn was electrifying in a way that really few people in college football in my time on this planet have been. like, like, genuinely, I think he’s in a similar category to Reggie Bush, with how every time he touched the football, you were like, he might score. And so I get it, I do.
I pick Spielman, I think his accolades matter. I think it’s funny if you remember the HBO doc that they did about the Ohio State Michigan rivalry. Yeah.
Stephen Means (09:35.068)
Yeah, that’s I was gonna bring up. He wanted to go to Michigan again. And that’s a good story, but we’re looking for the best greatest buck guy. We’re not looking for the best player. And so I don’t wanna lean too much into the accolades as obviously what Chris Mead would end up with a top four seed. But again, I told them before we started recording, I’m here to hate today. That’s almost my job.
Andrew Gillis (09:40.104)
And his dad was like, no, you’re a traitor. You’re going down. Yeah.
Right, exactly.
Stephen Means (10:01.074)
We’re comparing legends amongst legends, so you have to find ways to separate these guys.
Stephen Means (10:08.772)
Why? makes, other than the fact that Chris Miamma was a really good football player here, what makes him a great Buckeye?
Stefan Krajisnik (10:20.28)
from Ohio.
Stephen Means (10:21.83)
Okay. So is Ted Ginn Jr. And Ted Ginn is from a school that quite frankly was a feeder school for this program under the head coach he played for. And it looks like it’s about to be a feeder school again for the current head coach.
Andrew Gillis (10:24.852)
So let’s head again.
Stephen Means (10:38.354)
So what makes him a greater book guy than Ted Kinn Jr.?
Andrew Gillis (10:48.48)
It’s a hard question to answer. Look, it is hard. I understand what you’re saying about the awards, but the awards do matter.
Stephen Means (11:01.692)
They do matter, but that’s also, but okay, the awards tell us he was good at playing football. It doesn’t mean that he’s, his, his, his.
Andrew Gillis (11:06.014)
Yeah, yes.
Stephen Means (11:13.796)
If you take him, again, I’m here to hate, so I’m saying that now, so.
Stephen Means (11:22.962)
He’s two and two against Michigan. So to use Jack Sawyer again, and the reason I’m bringing Jack Sawyer up so much is in all seriousness, Jack Sawyer did what he did for the last four months of the season, and that’s, it kind of sparked us having this conversation of where he fits into the hierarchy of things. So Jack, in a lot of ways, is going to be our measuring stick for some of these things. So I apologize if it feels like we’re using Jack a lot over the next, especially the next couple of weeks here, if Jack makes it into the Elite Eight.
which is the voting still open 6 1 4 3 5 0 3 3 1 5.
Stephen Means (11:57.88)
is the difference between... Like what’s the difference between Chris Bielman and James Laurinitis?
Stefan Krajisnik (12:10.21)
Guess kind of the, you were talking about yesterday, like the visual aspect, the kind of how that era is remembered, things of that nature, the aura stuff, intangibles.
Stephen Means (12:20.998)
because from a...
Accolade standpoint, they’re pretty much on par.
And I have another, I have a few things. I feel like I’m disorganized. I feel like sometimes whenever you go first, are on, there’s like, everybody’s chasing you. Right? Like I think that Chris Spielman and James Larrinatis have a lot more in common than maybe the average person would think, especially when you just, if you took away the names and put up their accomplishments as Ohio State football players, blindly, okay.
James or James or nice is a three time All-American Chris Spielman’s a three time All-American. One of these guys was the best linebacker during their time in college football. Well, this guy was the best linebacker during his time in college football. this guy was a day two draft pick. this guy’s a day two draft pick. We even know back then the entire draft was on Saturday at that point, but still you understand what I’m saying here. And I spent a lot of yesterday’s pod fighting against the idea of James or not. It deserves to make it over Jack Sawyer.
simply because he was a better football player, when that’s not the essence of what we’re trying to do here. If we’re looking for that extra oomph.
Stephen Means (13:36.348)
for why they’re so important to the program. I’m not 100 % sure, I would love, six one four three five zero three one five, I would love for some pushback, because again, I’m doing this purposely almost. Chris Spielman, Maslin Washington, Ohio State, and then he was an NFL player, quality NFL player, and he has since been the Detroit Lions staff. He’s been working for the Lions ever since then. It’s not like he’s around the program.
Right now and I get it. This is why hate that we had to like lump it into their four years at Ohio State because. Ted again played at Ohio State. He played at a high school that’s very much known for sending kids to Ohio State and now he’s helping out over at that high school who still sending kids to Ohio State step on your favorite play on this team is from the same high school as Ted again. Right, sincere Johnson’s from Glenfield, Bryce West is from Glenville and it’s pretty other guys who are probably.
There’s a tight end slash wide receiver on the roster right now. Andrew, you really are intrigued by who is from Glenville as well. The list keeps going on and on there. I’m just not, I’m looking for the extra thing for both of these guys for why greatest Buckeye, not just great Buckeye players, they deserve to make it onto the next round.
Andrew Gillis (14:51.168)
So I think when you look at Spielman.
he might have had now they lost the game. So it’s one of those do you care? But he had 29 tackles against Michigan in a loss. And I’m not talking 29 tackles like if Sonny Styles finished his Michigan career or finishes Ohio State career gets Michigan with 29 tackles. You’d be like, okay, that makes sense. Chris Spielberg in 1986 had 29 tackles in a game, which by the way,
Stephen Means (15:03.42)
So Jack Sawyer.
Stephen Means (15:13.65)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Gillis (15:26.944)
Do you guys know who Michigan’s quarterback was that game?
Stephen Means (15:30.524)
No.
Andrew Gillis (15:31.154)
is Jim Harbaugh, which I thought was really funny.
Stephen Means (15:33.852)
Is that the game where Jim Harbaugh guaranteed the win before he got it?
Andrew Gillis (15:38.218)
I think so. I think it was.
Stephen Means (15:39.14)
Okay, because that’s what like if we were doing the Michigan thing, that’s why Jim Harbaugh moves on.
Andrew Gillis (15:42.716)
And yeah, boy. Yeah. But that’s.
Stephen Means (15:49.232)
mixed with the fact that he led them to a national championship. But like, it starts there.
Andrew Gillis (15:53.418)
Yeah, so there’s not like an 85 yards to the heart of the South kind of moment there, but 29 tackles against Michigan is one of the more superb efforts. Yeah, but it is, but I think it does matter that it’s one of the more superb efforts in the history of the rivalry.
Stefan Krajisnik (16:03.598)
It’s in the loss though.
Stephen Means (16:05.158)
Right, because, yeah, we can’t, we can’t. No, it doesn’t, because we can’t. To Stefan’s point yesterday, Jack Sawyer had one of the greatest moments I’ve ever seen in an Ohio State-Michigan game. And guess what? It doesn’t matter because they lost the game.
Stefan Krajisnik (16:07.214)
I don’t think it matters. I don’t think it matters. It was in a lot.
Stefan Krajisnik (16:21.858)
If he had 29 tackles in a win against Michigan, I would say, yeah, that goes under like memorable moment. I don’t think people go around, walk around and say, remember when he had 29 tackles against Michigan? Cause they probably don’t want to talk about that game.
Stephen Means (16:34.16)
Right. So it’s a cool stat. It’s also a cool stat that him and Tom Kooz and now are the only two players in Ohio State history who have had at least 200 tackles Which is also it’s just fun. No one’s gonna get close to those numbers of tackles anymore either And I think some of this is because they count tackles a little bit different now, but the point still stands It’s a stat
But right to Ryan days when he talked about this with this 2020 14 in this era of Buckeyes. They’ve done all these things and unless they want to ring and now it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. We’re not doing this entire bracket. If Jack Sawyer doesn’t want a national championship because it doesn’t matter.
But you can also say that on the other end. Ted Ginn started off a national championship game with a kick return for a touchdown. Okay, so you lost 41 to 14.
So I don’t,
This is a long conversation. I’m not sure. I think both of these guys are great players in Ohio State history. And again, I wish one of us was a little bit older so we could feel the aura part of it a little bit more with Chris Spielman, because you’re right, Andrew, we lived through Ted Ginn a little bit more, so we know what that feels like in a way that maybe we’re just not privy to with Chris Spielman. I’m just looking for something other than he was an awesome football player that made you feel it.
Stefan Krajisnik (17:58.094)
I you can judge some of that from today too though. Like the way Ted Gunn Jr. has talked about around Ohio State, the amount of Ted Gunn Jr. jerseys you still see at Ohio State games. Yes, sure, some of that is the age gap, but like...
Stephen Means (18:03.793)
Mm-hmm.
Stefan Krajisnik (18:17.806)
I don’t want to like knock Spielman for like, he’s got a job, right? Like he has a job in football that probably makes it tough to like be around Ohio State at all times, you know?
Stephen Means (18:25.712)
Yeah, when he was a broadcaster, he was probably a little bit more around. That’s fair.
Stefan Krajisnik (18:30.094)
Right, right. But like that stuff, all kinds of kind of matters. Like you mentioned the high school pipeline, like they kind of that kind of matters like that. All this ties into it where I mean, like we said at the start of the segment, the accolades and the stats and stuff, you’re probably going to lean towards Spielman and all he did. And then you look at Michigan success, you give that to Ted Ginn Jr. and talk about aura, you probably give that to him. Like it’s it’s a pretty it’s a pretty even contest for.
A battle that like you think wouldn’t be. Like if you say. Who’s better? know this electrifying player or the second best linebacker Big 10 history is probably not much of a debate in that sense, but there’s so much more that goes into this where who is more synonymous with Ohio State football. There’s a lot of people who would say Ted kid junior and that’s why I think the voting here is probably closer than you would expect for a matchup between what is this 4 and 13. Yeah.
Stephen Means (19:03.676)
Mm-hmm.
Stephen Means (19:12.242)
Right.
Stephen Means (19:27.825)
Yeah. And I just, I want to continue to hammer that point of it home. I’m like, just think, and I wish, I wish we could be there because I do feel like there are probably people who are screaming into their phones right now, their computers. Just trust us. The vibes were there. The aura was there. Trust us in that sense. And I don’t want to take that idea away either of like, if you lived through it.
It’s like, no, just trust me. Chris Bielman was, and your aura had to be a lot stronger back then, because there wasn’t social media and the internet that was pushing you along the way. You had to really have it. So I don’t want to take that away. I just don’t want the answers to every single one of these to just simply be because, this guy’s a greater buck guy because he was a better football player. When there’s so much more to that. And I’m glad, Andrew, you brought up the 29 tackles because that’s what we’re talking about. That’s a good football player being a good football player.
But it’s the Ohio State Michigan game. So it’s either you won the game or you lost the game. So all your cool moments. Justin Fields’ moment where he came out of the tent and threw a touchdown pass against Michigan in 2019 only matters because they won the game.
Curtis Samuel hitting the hole and then leaping into the end zone with his arms spread out. That’s a picture all over the place. Why? Because Ohio State won the game.
Stefan Krajisnik (20:57.038)
Will Howard might be on the list if they beat Michigan. He comes back from that quote unquote concussion.
Stephen Means (21:01.33)
Oh, that was like, I don’t even know what that was. He was like hyping the crowd up and yelling at train. It was magnificent. I think I wrote it at halftime. like, oh, he’s like really invested in this. And I think that would have been the lead if they’d have won. They just lost, but they lost. So who cares? Unfortunately.
Stefan Krajisnik (21:25.56)
should give Spuillman Spuillman credit he did have the net guard that that is or a
Stephen Means (21:30.256)
Yes, yeah, listen, Neck guards, cowboy collars, the face mask where they’ve got a whole bunch happening. I’m all for it with linebackers, man. Be great. Elbow pads, listen, let’s take it back to 1980 with the linebackers, man. It’s too much simplicity in football. just.
Andrew Gillis (21:47.648)
Well, he also like if you look sometimes like the jersey was like cut, it was almost like the v-neck jersey is yeah, like those like you think of like Bosworth had that it’s really it’s a really cool look.
Stephen Means (21:52.594)
I’m on fire.
Stephen Means (21:59.46)
No, it’s just beautiful. It’s beautiful. It’s wonderful. Carson Hinsman was wearing that helmet, that face mask this year with like the half thing. Carson, please don’t take that off. It’s just, it adds to the vibes. So again, I’m not, I just want to make, this is not a greatest player in terms of who is just better conversation. This is an ultimate Buckeye conversation. And I think if you look at it through that lens, Chris Spielman versus Tedkin Jr. might be a little bit closer or it might,
Stefan Krajisnik (22:02.936)
football.
Stefan Krajisnik (22:09.133)
Yeah.
Stephen Means (22:29.476)
emphasize even more for you that Chris Spielman is definitely the guy. But think about it from that standpoint. Stefan, or you wanna go next?
Stefan Krajisnik (22:39.63)
Ummm...
Stefan Krajisnik (22:43.508)
That was a longer debate. Let’s do Eddie George, Chick Harley.
Stephen Means (22:49.436)
Okay?
Abs or stadium?
Stephen Means (22:58.386)
You’d rather want abs and then the bill the whole these holy church after for you to perform in What’s understandable and you you think that would you rather have abs or them building a stadium in your office?
Stefan Krajisnik (23:05.71)
Yeah, that’s fine.
Andrew Gillis (23:18.208)
mean, both of those possibilities just feel so far-fetched.
Stephen Means (23:22.194)
One is a little more realistic. It’s just you getting in the gym and eating better. But it doesn’t mean your abs are going to come out like Eddie George’s. While the other one is just you being a great man for a specific one.
Stefan Krajisnik (23:33.038)
I don’t know, man. Sometimes I think they might build a stadium for me before that happens.
Andrew Gillis (23:37.36)
Yeah, yeah.
Stephen Means (23:38.156)
Tells me about your eating habits. no, that’s not about this isn’t about Eddie George a chick yet. This is about you. What do you want? You want abs or a building?
Andrew Gillis (23:43.773)
Look.
I know.
Andrew Gillis (23:54.156)
abs because that like what does it matter if people remember me well this guy you know look at gillis stadium over there look at that wow what a great guy he was back in the day i want to be remembered now i want i want to face the i want to be better i want to have the benefits now
I want to be able to go for a jog on the beach like and just be like, you know what? This is great. I don’t care because you know what? Like imagine that I go for a jog on the beach and I’m just like wearing like the like the cutoff that like Eddie George would wear the Zeke like the crop top. Yeah. What do you think lands? What do you think? Like people are more impressed by that? Or if I walk up to them and I say there’s a stadium in Ohio built after me and named after me and they built it in my honor. What do you think is going to like?
Stephen Means (24:25.714)
Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Gillis (24:42.356)
What do you think impresses people more? I have an answer to that question, so I take the short term value.
Stefan Krajisnik (24:49.336)
Well, the one counter is if they named the stadium after you, it means you probably got a decent amount of money. So that’s not, that’s not bad either.
Stephen Means (24:55.186)
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, check out a lot of money he was just that all oh yeah, man of the day you paid
Andrew Gillis (24:55.296)
Yeah.
Stefan Krajisnik (24:58.498)
Well, I’m saying if it would have happened today. If your name’s on a building today and you’re still alive, you got a lot of money.
Stephen Means (25:04.006)
Yeah, you paid for it. yeah, that sentiment is true.
Stephen Means (25:11.394)
Abs is, I get the benefit from them.
The building is, I live forever.
Cause here’s the deal, the guy with the abs has his name in the stadium built for the other guy.
Stephen Means (25:31.41)
I’m inclined to take stadium if I get equity in the stadium
Stefan Krajisnik (25:36.206)
Do I get a Heisman Trophy if I have the abs?
Stephen Means (25:39.366)
That’s not guaranteed. You gotta put the abs a good use to get the Heisman Trophy. Which is why Eddie George is here. He put the abs a good use, man. I’m just, know, Heisman Trophy winner in 1995, Walter Kemp Award winner, Maxwell Award winner, Doak Walker Award winner, unanimous All-American, Big Ten most valuable player, Big Ten offensive player of the year, first team, all Big Ten. What’s the crazy thing about Eddie George is, I don’t wanna say it’s a flash in the pan, but it’s like he just turned into supernova.
his last year here. He was good his entire career, obviously, but there was just something about that last year here. He was here from 1992 to 1995. And that night, the years before 1995, here are his stats. In 1992, 37 carries for 176 yards. In 1993, 42 carries for 223 yards. So he had, he had eight touchdowns his first two years here. And then in 1995,
Excuse me, 1994 is when he finally got onto the field and got his opportunity. 261 carries for 1,353 yards and 12 touchdowns, plus 16 catches for 117 yards. So it’s fine. But Trevion Henderson was putting up those types of numbers. J.K. Dobbins was putting up those types of numbers. Zeke was putting up those types of numbers. And then John Cooper went, I’m gonna give this guy the ball 300 times and let’s just see what happens.
And he had 1,826 yards and 23 touchdowns, which the 1,826 yards was a school record until J.K. Dobbins had it. And I think those 23 touchdowns are still a school record, but he’s got the stats, he’s got the accolades. He doesn’t necessarily have the Michigan because that’s part of the 90s when they were losing the Michigan a lot more often.
No, I’m serious. Excuse me. The record still is Pete Johnson with 25 in 1975. Eddie George the second is he go to third on that list. But he’s also got the aura, Andrew. And I’m going to you first here because he’s got the abs, but he’s also got the picture of him running away from Notre Dame.
Andrew Gillis (27:46.943)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, well, he’s got the picture of him running away from Notre Dame, which is like just iconic. Like that’s obviously a great photo. But. Well, there are there are other photos that are better, where it’s just like you just you just see him like take a hand off and the high shoulder pads like just them like like it looked like compare him to Quinchon Judkins and Trevion Henderson.
Stephen Means (27:55.356)
Beautiful. What the abs showing?
Andrew Gillis (28:18.162)
And it literally looks like Quinn Sean Judkins and Trevon Henderson just decided I’m going to throw on a jersey. I don’t need shoulder pads today because the shoulder pads of like the mid nineties completely different for Eddie George. So like the big shoulder pads, the just he’s got the the look man. And and that’s really cool. This this was hard because there were a lot of categories. I think that you just can’t compare.
I said this with Chick Harley, I believe, or maybe Havell and Cassidy and like somebody from, you a hundred years ago. And I was like, did people have aura back then? Did people?
Stephen Means (29:00.464)
They built a stadium after him, Andrew. Yes, we had aura.
Andrew Gillis (29:02.782)
Yeah, I get it. But it’s like, I think it’s different when you’re comparing people of different eras.
Stephen Means (29:11.506)
They didn’t build a stadium after Eddie George.
Andrew Gillis (29:13.714)
No, didn’t. To be fair, it was already there, but because this guy built it, right. I, yeah, I get it. I mean, he didn’t like, he wasn’t out there just like laying every brick of the stadium himself, but I get it.
Stephen Means (29:17.294)
Exactly. J. Carly said you’re welcome.
Stephen Means (29:28.114)
Yeah, he was with every run and every... Yeah, he probably could have, dude.
Stefan Krajisnik (29:29.4)
Based on everything he did in his life, he probably could’ve.
Andrew Gillis (29:32.416)
Yeah, fair. But like, this was also hard because he was at Ohio State from 1916 to 1919. And if you go, there was a war in between. Ohio State, Michigan, when you look at the record book, he was in war the one year that Michigan beat them and they beat him 14 to nothing. And
Stephen Means (29:45.414)
with the war in between.
Stephen Means (30:00.338)
I think that should matter. think that should matter. War. That war.
Andrew Gillis (30:05.012)
that he was in a war.
Stephen Means (30:10.074)
is the reason why Ohio State lost to Michigan. Like we’re talking about Connor Stallions in this era. A literal war is why Ohio State lost to Michigan.
Andrew Gillis (30:22.496)
Well, I disagree.
Stephen Means (30:27.172)
He wasn’t there, he was at war.
Andrew Gillis (30:29.202)
Yeah, to that point in the series history, do know how many times Ohio State had won? They hadn’t won yet. They hadn’t won yet. Like they had never won yet. Like this isn’t a, man, they got a, they got a rough ride because you know, it was a rough five year stretch. No, they just hadn’t done it. Like imagine if like,
Stephen Means (30:34.363)
That’s not part, that doesn’t help my argument. That’s not helping my agenda.
Andrew Gillis (30:54.526)
I’m trying to like imagine if like, I’m trying to think of like a, like an example where it was just like, man, you know what? this FCF school, you know, Hey, they would have beaten blank if it weren’t. It’s like, come on, man. Like at that point of the time, like Ohio State just hadn’t beaten Michigan and the scores were, I know it was 19, whatever, but like they were scoring zero points every year. And then he comes back and they, they win. So it’s like, okay, he played in.
Stephen Means (31:07.442)
Yeah.
Stephen Means (31:17.756)
They hadn’t scored in nine years.
Andrew Gillis (31:24.544)
One Ohio State Michigan game, 1919. Ohio State won that game 13 to three.
Stephen Means (31:27.484)
He won. Yep.
Andrew Gillis (31:31.752)
So it’s like, okay, he only played in one at a time when Michigan was dominating the rivalry. So is that a point in his category that they won the first one? Is it a point in Eddie’s category that he was playing also really good Michigan teams, but he had to play them four times? Like this was hard. This was a hard one.
Stephen Means (31:57.778)
It’s not his fault he only played one of them. They didn’t play from 1913 to 1917
Andrew Gillis (32:02.494)
Right. Right, but it’s not Eddie’s fault.
Stephen Means (32:06.898)
Um, no, it’s not but again, he’s no different than this era of Buckeyes who just left and they’re lost Yeah, one Jack Swartz. Well, either I think it’s hilarious that chick Carly’s first round matchup was Justin Fields and Chick Carly only got one Ohio State, Michigan game It was in 1919 and Justin Fields only got one Ohio State, Michigan game and it was literally 100 years later That’s special it’s I think it’s
Stefan Krajisnik (32:14.08)
Jack’s order is fault.
Stefan Krajisnik (32:31.662)
You
Stephen Means (32:37.702)
I just, can’t get, they built a stadium after the dude, That’s his aura. But both of you liked apps. So I get it. You love how I just like dumb the entire argument down to do you want apps or a building?
Stefan Krajisnik (32:55.544)
Picturing as Notre Dame is pretty cool.
Stephen Means (32:57.586)
Yeah, ab showing.
Andrew Gillis (33:00.192)
Do you want traversable concourses or do you want a six pack? That’s what you’re asking. Shorter bathroom lines or no social anxiety in the summer? I don’t know.
Stephen Means (33:04.07)
Yes. Yes. And that’s what I’m asking our tech.
Stefan Krajisnik (33:13.534)
shorter, shorter bathroom lines every time.
Stephen Means (33:16.562)
Yeah, 614-35-03315. Go vote. That’s what you’re voting on with Eddie George and Chick Harley. Do you want abs or a building? I can’t wait to see how that sways how people vote. Do you want equity? You want a state or do you want abs? Okay, let’s take a break. And then we got Pace, Doss, Braxton and Barrett waiting on the other side of this break here on Buckeye Talk. And we’re back here on Buckeye Talk.
The two ABBA’s guys and Stephen Means, that’s Stefan Krasnik and Andrew Gillis, we’re talking Ohio State’s greatest buckeye again. This is not about who the better players. It’s about who better epitomizes what it means to be an Ohio State football player. Who’s the guy you can’t tell the story of Ohio State football without him. And the longer this goes on, the more I feel like we maybe shouldn’t have included Archie Griffin either. He’s got a statue outside of the state. Chick Harley has a stadium.
Archie Griffin has a statue like right outside of the stadium and the same statue at the Rose Bowl. So maybe this was never fair to begin with, but it’s a fun exercise to go through all these Ohio State football players in history. Are we assuming that Braxton Miller and JT Barrett’s gonna be a conversation?
Andrew Gillis (34:30.058)
Yeah. At the very least, I don’t know how you guys are approaching this. It’s not going to it’s going to be more of a conversation, I think, than pay Stoss.
Stefan Krajisnik (34:30.658)
Yes.
Stephen Means (34:31.43)
Okay.
Stephen Means (34:41.35)
I don’t know if that’s a bar, because I think Pace and Doss is about seven minutes of a conversation.
Andrew Gillis (34:47.776)
if we need seven.
Stephen Means (34:48.86)
Right.
Stefan Krajisnik (34:49.006)
I think, yeah, pace probably should have been higher in the seating.
Stephen Means (34:54.394)
Well, no, I mean, he’s the sixth seed and the guy’s in front of us. I think it’s easy to say that and then you look at the guys ahead of him and go, okay, nevermind.
Stephen Means (35:07.142)
I just, I think it helps that Orlando Pace’s kids have played at Ohio State. Like Landon Pace was on this roster for a little bit. And that’s not to say, take anything away from Mike Doss, but I think Mike Doss was a special player for it. was again, Tatum, Doss, Hooker, Downs. That’s the lineage. And then we got Bland Bradford coming up next.
I just think it may be in this situation.
The accolades are just so, so, so skewed. And I don’t know if like a safety, you said this yesterday, Stefan, when we were comparing Mike Dawes to a quarterback, where it’s just, it’s hard for a safety to get aura like that. And when you have an offensive lineman where it’s impossible to get aura, still have a level of aura. Plus he’s probably the greatest offensive lineman in maybe the history of college football, he’s at least on a short list of people. This is where.
maybe I’m gonna be a little bit of a hypocrite, Andrew, and allow greatest player to maybe have a little bit more of an impact because there’s a level you have to be in terms of good for you to even make this list to begin with because offensive line, most people are not paying attention to that position.
Andrew Gillis (36:19.552)
Yeah, do you know how good you have to be to have Aura as an offensive lineman? Like, do you know how good you have to be for people to look at you and like remember Orlando Pace as one of their favorite Buckeyes? Like, he was like one of our, I think one of, if not our only offensive lineman in the top 32. And yeah, I think he, I mean, he was obviously the best, but.
Stephen Means (36:23.804)
Right.
Stephen Means (36:33.242)
Yeah.
Andrew Gillis (36:46.218)
There are a lot of good football players that Ohio State has had over the years, and there are lot of great football players that Ohio State has had over the years, and I’m talking over the years as in like decades, but when you stand out in a way that’s just different from being a great football player, that’s obviously kind of what separates you for this list.
And the fact that alignment, the fact that a tackle is at this, this level is big. And I, I understand Mike Doss had his own great career and three time first team, big 10. He was a national champion. Like I, I, I understand all of that, but you also have, you have two Ohio kids. know one of them won a national championship. know, um, that matters for a lot of people, but
He was just so dominant. And when you look at Orlando Pace at Ohio State, it looks like not even real with how big he was compared to like other big football players that he was going up against at Penn State or Michigan or wherever. just he would he he had aura a lot at a position that is so difficult to have. And then also
Aura is not just like, he looked cool, or he was cool. To me, Aura is additionally, man, he might have just been the greatest offensive lineman ever. Like when you’re the greatest at something, that matters. When you’re the great, I don’t care if you’re the greatest punt returner and people don’t talk about you a lot, that matters.
And I think him being the greatest offensive lineman in Ohio State history,
Stephen Means (38:39.91)
Now, with that being said, Stefan, he’s one and two against Michigan. But at the same time, Mike Dawson is two and two against Michigan. And he came back for his senior year to get that second one against Michigan. So through three years, both of them were one and two against Michigan. So even, there’s just, it’s Orlando. I do wonder if he started to become the favorite for this region right now, because here was this region. First round, was Eddie George versus Brian Hartline.
Justin Fields versus Chick Harley. Chick Harley beat Justin Fields. Eddie George beat Brian Hartline. Mike Dawson against Rex Turn. Mike Dawson got the win. Orlando Pace versus Chris Olave. Orlando Pace got the win. He got 88 % of the votes. Mike Dawson got 65 % of the votes. Chick Harley got 53 % of the votes. And Eddie George got 77 % of the votes in this region. And so now what we have is Eddie George against Chick Harley and Orlando Pace against Mike Dawson.
Of those four, I might say Orlando pace might be the favorite to win this region and get to the final four right now.
Stefan Krajisnik (39:43.116)
It wouldn’t surprise me. I think he’s, it goes back to, I think we had the conversation with, maybe it was with Troy Smith. I’m just like, it’s one thing to collect all Americans and all big tents. It’s another thing to be in the Heisman conversation, especially as an offensive lineman. That’s crazy to even think about today. And I, there is still like a present day presence about Orlando pace, not just in terms of him being talked about as an Ohio state. Great. But like you said, with his kids, he’s an Ohio guy. Like.
Stephen Means (39:57.798)
Yeah. Yeah.
Stefan Krajisnik (40:13.602)
There’s a lot that kind of ties into this bigger Buckeye discussion where Orlando Pace was not just a great on field player for Ohio State that, you know, gets forgotten about in the mix of great players. Like he is one of one on top of which he is very tied to Ohio State still present day. And I think that matters.
Stephen Means (40:34.556)
finished fourth in voting in 1996 and that was the year after he was blocking for Eddie George during his high control for year. I...
He also lined up a defensive tackle at sometimes during his junior year, which is probably what helped him. I would like to see Ohio State get back to promoting its Heisman Trophy candidates like this. They were selling pancake magnets in 96 to like promote him as a Heisman Trophy finalist. I would like to see them get back to that, especially when it feels like.
Coming into this year, they’ve got three guys where if they get, if one of those three gets to New York, I don’t think it would be shocking between Julian, whoever is the starting quarterback at Ohio State, I’ll say quarterback, you’re already a Heisman trophy candidate, Jeremiah Smith and Caleb Dows. And I would like to see them be super uber, like the way they were with Marv Andrew in 2023, where they kind of went out of their way to make sure that Marv was.
in consideration and it got him to New York, right? We talked to him every single week, but it’s not just about that. It was some of the stuff they were doing on social media with Marv. They really went full throttle with get Marv to New York, not just with his play, but with some of the stuff they were doing to make sure that he was on everybody’s minds. And I would love for them to do that this year when you’ve got three guys heading into the year to got an offensive guy, a defensive guy and a quarterback who all
could have a case by the end of the year, just given the way this team is set up right now. I would like to see Ohio State make a full throttle push at trying to get, because it’s cool. They’ve had my Heisman Trophy finalist. I think this is the year where it could be set up for one of those guys to actually win the award. Now granted, they gotta take business again, take care of business against Michigan, but still, I think this is a really good opportunity for that to happen. Okay.
Stephen Means (42:26.396)
JT Baird against Braxton Miller.
Stephen Means (42:33.264)
Do you both think it’s JT or do both or do one of you think it’s Braxton Miller? Like what’s where are you leaning right now? I’ll start with you answer. Where do you lean?
Andrew Gillis (42:42.216)
I came into this wanting to hear the debates because I genuinely don’t have a lien because I’ve gone back and forth because I, it depends on the categories that you want to weigh. And I, I really don’t have a lien right now because I think they were two different types of quarterbacks and they were two different types of players. And this is very like,
hilariously, it’s a 512 matchup. it is so like if you want to pick the 12, it’s not crazy. But this is kind of one of those NCAA tournament matchups that you see, where maybe you have a team that’s chucking up a bunch of threes versus a team that’s much more methodical and much more slower paced and, you know, backdoor cuts and things like that, right? Like you hear about that in the tournament, like this to me is
East versus West, new school versus old school. This is the class of styles. And I really had a hard time figuring it out. So I just went, you know what? I’m going to go on the podcast and we’re going to talk it out.
Stephen Means (43:50.576)
Are you leaning one way the other,
Stefan Krajisnik (43:54.348)
I think I’m leading JT. And I think literally the only reason I’m leading JT is because of the 2014 season.
Stephen Means (43:56.657)
Okay.
Stephen Means (44:11.044)
Okay. Okay, if you’re going to lean that way.
Andrew, you can be an audience member for a second. I’ll let you take JT and I’ll take Braxton and we can debate this out a little bit. So go ahead.
Stefan Krajisnik (44:34.542)
Well, I think, okay, we can start with, I mean, the accolades all kind of speak for themselves. Three time first team all big 10, big 10 freshman of the year, three time big 10 quarterback of the year, 2016 big 10 MVP, third team all American in 2014, Kellyn Moore award 2017 national champ, 2014 season. Obviously the way this, the way the 2014 season transpired, Braxton gets hurt, JT starts, JT ends up getting hurt, Cardale finishes the job.
For team success, I almost lean toward wanting to give JT the leg up just because he played an integral part in that 2014 championship campaign that although he finished, although he didn’t finish the job, he did a pretty damn big part in getting them there because he played and he started 12 of those games. So accolades, I think I give to him or sorry, team success, I think I give to him.
Stephen Means (45:13.479)
Mm-hmm.
Stephen Means (45:20.402)
Right.
Stefan Krajisnik (45:29.536)
Accolades probably kind of cancel each other out there.
I think there’s something to JT of the, the, role that he played in a 2014 season and the way the season transpired, that there is an aura aspect to it that Cardale Jones has as well because he finished the job. But I think JT has as well because. Braxton goes down. I mean, he’s expected to be one of the best players in college football that year, regardless of how good you think JT is. think there’s a little sense of worry, you know, just around the country of watching Ohio state of what this team’s going to look like without.
They’re expected to start a quarterback and for him to come in and be like, everything’s fine. I’m amazing. There is an aura aspect to that, that I think set up that team, we’re loaded team for a great run that year. And I think Ohio state fans remember that pretty fond.
Stephen Means (46:25.798)
You listed off JT’s accolades and awards. Braxton Miller, five star quarterback out of Huber Heights, Wayne High School, down there near Dayton. It was two time all big 10. He kind of was the star in 2011. He took over for Joe Boseman halfway through that year.
Can I not count 2011 against Braxton?
Am I allowed to do that? I’m asking because it’s the year, he’s not supposed to be the starter. It’s supposed to be Terrell Pryor, but obviously Tatu Gait and all that stuff happens with Terrell Pryor is not there. Jim Trest is not the head coach. Luke Fickles in his interim role. And so it’s just kind of a, it’s not a real year to gauge everything. It’s why everybody just dismisses the Ohio State Michigan loss that year. Am I allowed to just not include that into? Yes.
Stefan Krajisnik (47:16.76)
Yeah, he was a true freshman, right? Yeah, I think that’s a lot to ask of a true freshman.
Stephen Means (47:21.426)
Okay, especially, okay, especially given the environment. This isn’t Trevor Lawrence walking into a ready-made Clemson team where it’s like, okay, Trevor, just be good. There’s a lot of moving pieces to Braxton in 2011. And even besides that, he wins Big Ten Freshman of the Year, and it’s because he was a starting quarterback. He’s the quarterback of the year in 2012 and 2013. In fact, him winning it in 2012 and 2013 after Russell Wilson had won it in 2011, I believe.
Sparked a run were outside of 2015 where once again, Ohio State was mishandling its quarterback situation every year Ohio State’s quarterback one quarterback of the year up until JJ McCarthy won in 2023 He was the big ten offensive player of the year in 2012 and 2013 and he was a big ten most valuable player in 2012 2013 he was also a second team all-american in 2012 he messes up his shoulder in the Orange Bowl against Clemson
to close out the 2013 season where up until the Big Ten Championship game that year, was now the sophomore year and junior year or when Urban Meyer gets here and they won the first 24 games of Urban Meyer’s career here with Brett Braxham Miller as a quarterback. They lose to Michigan State in the Big Ten Championship game, which kicks them out of the National Championship game, which, Andrew, I might need you to look this up for me, because I think they would have played Notre Dame.
Andrew Gillis (48:47.505)
in 2012.
Stephen Means (48:49.723)
Yes.
Andrew Gillis (48:50.546)
Yes, that would have been the national championship game. Because Ohio State was out, was Alabama. Alabama jumped in instead of them over Georgia because they beat Georgia in the SEC title game that year.
Stephen Means (48:53.82)
Right.
Stephen Means (48:59.142)
because they, because of sanctions.
Stephen Means (49:06.385)
Right.
Yes, so sanctions kicked, ruined Jackson Miller’s chances of competing for a national title in 2012. And given the way that game went, with all due respect to Notre Dame, I think Ohio State would have won that game.
2013, they ruined their own chances of getting there because they lost to Michigan State in the Big 10 championship game. And as I mentioned, snapping a 24 game win streak, which is the longest in Ohio State history to start your career as a head coach, Urban Meyer. And then he kind of, messes up his shoulder against Clemson in the Orange Bowl. They lose that game as well. And then he has essentially a season ending injury because he re-injures the shoulder heading into 2014, which is how JT Barrett is even born.
Stephen Means (49:58.93)
So in 2012, sanctions kept him from winning a national title. 2013, he kept himself from winning a national title. 2014, an injury kept him from winning a national title. My question to you guys is this, I think Braxton Miller was amongst the favorites to win the Heisman Trophy heading into 2014.
What if he doesn’t get hurt?
Stefan Krajisnik (50:20.34)
He might be number one. Well, he might be at least top two. I think he’d probably be above Troy Smith.
Andrew Gillis (50:28.224)
That was the hard part that I was having and I wanted to hear how you guys did this because like JT Barrett got hurt and that, I mean that took him out but it’s like how do you weigh JT’s injury in season at the end of the regular season versus Braxton’s preseason injury?
right, or his his injury that he had in the offseason or suffered than recovered in the offseason from like that.
Stephen Means (51:04.124)
Well, just don’t mean one can’t happen without the other. That’s why. Like if Braxton doesn’t get hurt, JT Barrett’s not in a position to do any of the things he did in 2014. He’s just the backup quarterback. Right. I don’t think Ohio State loses to Virginia Tech on September 6th. If Braxton Miller’s are starting quarterback. I think Virginia Tech took advantage of young quarterback.
Andrew Gillis (51:07.984)
Right. so, right.
Of course. And we have no idea who Cardell-Jones even is. Yeah.
Stephen Means (51:34.012)
probably wasn’t ready yet for that moment. Cause he got better going forward.
But he wasn’t ready to play a Power Four team, his second start, when he wasn’t even expected to be the starter 30 days before that. So then they’re undefeated, given the way the rest of the season played out. Because we have to assume all the other moving pieces of Ohio State turn into what they turn into. Zeke still turns into Zeke, Joey Bosa still turns into Joey Bosa, Michael Thomas still turns into Michael Thomas, Devin Smith still turns into Devin Smith, Evan Spencer turns into Evan Spencer, Von-
Bell turned into Von Bell, Lee turned into Darren Lee. The offensive line who was super, super young the start of the year is this super, super really good offensive line that’s got Taylor Decker and a bunch of Ohio guys on it by the end of it. Everything else still happens. It’s just the guy that people thought might win the Heisman Trophy coming into the season doesn’t get hurt. So like we talked about with CJ Stroud, if he beats Michigan once, maybe he wins the Heisman Trophy. Maybe Braxton Miller has a Heisman Trophy in a national championship. And now he’s in the same conversation that Cam Newton.
had been put into and that Jameis Winston had been put into. And now Joe Burrow years later would get into of, won the Heisman International Championship in the same year. Now those guys were all number one overall picks. Braxton Miller was not going to be that. But Braxton Miller’s shoulder injury fundamentally changed the trajectory of his career because he comes back in 2015 and now he’s playing wide receiver.
Stefan Krajisnik (52:59.788)
Yes, I agree that if all these things that happened, definitely Ohio state probably still wins a national title that year and Braxton maybe has a Heisman campaign and all. Isn’t part of what makes that team that celebrated the way things transpired, the way that JT had to step in and be the guy to lead them in regular season, the way that Cardale had to step in and win the playoff. Like I’m not saying that a 2014 national title with Braxton Miller would be like forgotten.
I don’t think it gets held in lore if it doesn’t transpire the way that it transpired. I think a lot of Ohio State fans will tell you that I’m happy that it went the way that it went because it made it that much more. I don’t want to say celebrated, but maybe like that much more different that like JT Barrett and Cardell still get talked about every year going into the season of why Lincoln Kienels and Tavian St. Clair are going to be so important this year. We heard it last year with Devin Brown and,
Stephen Means (53:49.778)
for sure.
Stefan Krajisnik (53:57.606)
Julia’s saying like it’s like it’s, we hear it all the time. And I think that’s part of like, and, and like, this isn’t even saying like JT deserves to be ahead of Braxton, but I think it’s part of why like JT’s lore is what it is because that story was so unique. Like that is, we talk about Zeke’s fraud, like that’s the memorable moment. The quarterback situation as a whole is like the memorable, like thing, like big picture thing too. And JT.
played a massive part in that.
Stephen Means (54:28.242)
But it is just being, but it’s just winning the first ever college football playoff and it’s because you had a super team.
Cause that’s what we’re talking. Let’s think, what are the best teams in the college football playoff era right now? LSU 2019, Alabama 2020 and Clemson 2018 probably.
Andrew Gillis (54:46.108)
AMA 2020.
Stefan Krajisnik (54:49.646)
2022 Georgia is probably in there.
Andrew Gillis (54:51.962)
yeah, that was the team that had five first round picks. Yeah.
Stephen Means (54:54.642)
Okay. So 18 Clemson because they’re the first 15 and no team 19 LSU because apparently Joe Rowe Burrow is an all time great 2020 Alabama because Nick Saban spent 13 years recruiting things at such a high level. And now this is like the ultimate version of that. And in 2022 Georgia, so those four teams you would say, and that’s the list. And then we’ll figure out if you were going to have a conversation, we’d have an hour and a half long podcast about it.
2014 Ohio State and 2024, Ohio State are probably the better stories to your point, Stefan, because of the background context of, you’re playing your third string starting quarterback because you lost your Heisman Trophy potential candidate at quarterback in the preseason. Then you created another Heisman Trophy candidate quarterback and you lost him against Michigan. And in 2024, look how low that team was and look at the hole they had to climb themselves out of. And then they beat, what was it, seven?
six of the top eight teams in the AP poll. And the only one they didn’t beat is because they didn’t play them in Georgia to win a national. So those stories are definitely better.
Stephen Means (56:08.732)
But so is being able to say that maybe we’re just, I don’t know, we’re one of the five greatest teams of all time. You know, I don’t know, we got the Heisman Trophy winner.
Stefan Krajisnik (56:15.15)
Not bad. Certainly not bad.
Stefan Krajisnik (56:21.518)
But think, but yeah, but Braxton doesn’t have that and because he doesn’t have that, JT becomes part of this conversation.
Stephen Means (56:27.77)
Yeah. And that’s what, that’s what’s the drill I’m getting is like Braxton getting hurt is why two other quarterbacks were on this, were on this list to begin with. The other reason why the, the what if for me is so important is Braxton never got a chance to get on the stage because sanctions they lost to Michigan state. He got hurt. JT didn’t play in the playoff in 2014. He did plan to play off in 2016 and it was so bad. They went and got Ryan Day and Kevin Wilson.
Andrew Gillis (56:34.824)
And this,
Stephen Means (56:57.042)
He got his play regressed from 2014 to 2015 to 2016, regardless of what his awards were. 2014, he completed 64.6 % of his passes, which led the Big Ten for 34 touchdowns, which was a Ohio State record in 10 touchdowns. The next year, weird, 63 % of his passes, he only threw 147 passes for 11 touchdowns and 400 exceptions, but he’s also sharing the job of Cardell Jones. In 2016, it’s his job once again.
Their offense was so bad and their quarterback play was so bad that their offense was essentially Curtis Samuel or bust. He completed 61 % of his passes for 2,500 yards and 24 touchdowns and seven interceptions. And I’ll throw the rushing yards in there as well. He had 938 rushing yards and 11 touchdowns in 2014. He had 682 rushing yards and 11 touchdowns in 2015. He had 845 rushing yards and nine touchdowns in 2016. And in 2017,
He had 798 rushing yards and 12 touchdowns rushing. And he also had 3,053 passing yards and 35 touchdowns, which that’s the first day that you’re in Ryan days here. It did kind of feel like by the time JT Barrow got out the door, people were ready to be done with him.
And then Dwayne Haston showed up in 2018 and threw for 50 touchdowns and everybody was like, that’s what it should look like. That’s quarterback play. Do that all the time. Justin Fields, CJ Stroud, Kyle McCord, Will Howard, Julian Sand. So that’s what the takeaway is.
Stefan Krajisnik (58:33.998)
still has the most passing yards in program history.
Stephen Means (58:38.096)
Which just means he was here forever. That’s all that means to me. That career numbers, career numbers to me have always just meant, that just means you’re CJ would have had, CJ was only a starter for two years. You want to know why? Cause he was good enough to go to the NFL when he was 21 years old. That’s why. CJ would have smacked those records around. Justin would have, you know what? Justin field his record, his career records are thrown off because COVID. So they only played eight games that year.
Stefan Krajisnik (58:42.286)
There’s a lot of guys who started a lot of games at Ohio State.
Stefan Krajisnik (58:56.526)
Proceed to what a broken record.
Andrew Gillis (58:57.248)
I think we’re going to have to start as first here.
Stephen Means (59:06.627)
If Justin was here for as long as JT Bear was, he would smack those records around. Dwayne Haskins has a third of JT Bear’s touchdowns all time and he was a starter for one year.
Andrew Gillis (59:18.654)
The thing.
Stefan Krajisnik (59:19.308)
Yeah, but it’s so cool to say that you’re an all-time leading passer.
Stephen Means (59:21.372)
I’m not yeah, I’m not taking away. Yeah, it matters it matters
Andrew Gillis (59:24.99)
Michael Jenkins, all-time leading receiver. Interesting.
Stephen Means (59:27.664)
because they forgot that Mecca and Bukka existed for a month while they were doing other things. But all I’m saying is JT Barrett, he had like a love-hate relationship with the fan base by the time it was over with. And they were happy for what he did in his career. And it’s cool that he celebrated now, but that they were, it was a breakup that it felt like it was time.
Andrew Gillis (59:31.732)
Maybe he was retarded.
Andrew Gillis (59:49.726)
It was, it was, yeah. Right.
Stephen Means (59:51.152)
You know, I think both sides were like, we’re kind of had enough of each other. What if we try something different? And the thing different was, Urban Meyer just has a problem with teams he shouldn’t be losing to because he lost to Purdue the next year, but Dwayne Haskins, man. And so it was, don’t think with Braxton Miller, they ever got a proper goodbye because he got hurt. And maybe his goodbye would have been after 2014. If he wins a Heisman,
Stefan Krajisnik (59:51.788)
in yours at Texas.
Stephen Means (01:00:19.12)
and they went to Natty in 2014 and he doesn’t get hurt, he’s gone. And it feels like the perfect send off versus a, well, this was fun, but don’t let the door hit you when you go out. And I don’t mean that negative, like mean, I’m just, know, sometimes it’s just okay to go your separate ways. And it felt like by the end of the JT Bear era, everybody was ready to move.
Andrew Gillis (01:00:45.994)
the, I’m so glad that these two got paired up against. Well, I mean, look, I think it’s fun to debate quarterbacks because like one of the things that I thought of as I was looking at this last night was this is like, if we did this list in 15 years, we’re not having another debate like this because of the way that college football has.
Stephen Means (01:00:49.538)
I’m not. I hate this.
Andrew Gillis (01:01:11.252)
kind of changed, you’re probably talking about a guy that one of them is gone. And one of them maybe doesn’t stick around. And because like, Braxton, like, how much does Braxton Miller sticking around after he got hurt? And after Ohio State going? Yeah, we got JT and Cardale. We’re good at quarterback, go to receiver. How much does him sticking around matter to him being a great Buckeye? Because
Stephen Means (01:01:12.198)
Maybe, maybe.
Andrew Gillis (01:01:40.484)
He could have whined and moaned and been, no, I’m a quarterback and I refuse to play receiver and blah, blah, blah. And they move into receiver and we get one of the sickest spin moves we’ve ever seen in our lives against Virginia Tech. But it’s like, how much does that matter? Because frankly, if that happened today, like let’s pretend instead of the mess that Ohio State had at left tackle in, in 2024,
and Donovan Jack, like imagine you are in that situation where you have the presumed starter gets hurt before the year, the backup who starts for spring practice in the summer and then the season gets hurt in the Michigan game. And then you bring in the third guy and let’s say it’s Julian, it’s Tavian and it’s Lincoln.
If they have that experience, one of them is maybe gone, right? Like one of them is maybe not here anymore. So that’s what I think makes this an interesting conversation is that these two guys, they were around a while and it would have been in another world. don’t know if they are, but I do think I am curious if that plays into the minds of voters and plays into the minds of our taxpayers where people look at it go, you know what? Braxton not only played quarterback,
Stephen Means (01:02:35.676)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Gillis (01:02:59.55)
And he was pretty good at it and he was really cool at it. And like I said, was talking to one of my buddies in Ohio State Pan. was like Braxton made playing Ohio State quarterback cool. Like Troy was awesome, but Braxton took it to another level. And I, I think him sticking around at receiver is going to matter for a lot of people because it would have been very easy for him not to do that. It would have been very easy for him not to be a good teammate, a good Buckeye. And he didn’t, and he
didn’t cause a stink.
Stephen Means (01:03:34.994)
I think there’s also to something that he has aura in two different Ohio State Jersey numbers.
Stephen Means (01:03:43.122)
Because number five is one thing. It did the spin move in number one on. That was special.
Andrew Gillis (01:03:43.369)
I don’t know.
Stephen Means (01:03:52.575)
I don’t know, I... Did we sway you one way or the other, Andrew?
Andrew Gillis (01:04:00.404)
Kinda lean JT.
Stephen Means (01:04:02.866)
That means I did a terrible job. It’s okay.
Andrew Gillis (01:04:04.768)
I kind of lean JT.
Stefan Krajisnik (01:04:06.358)
I was about to say I might be leaning Braxton now.
Stephen Means (01:04:08.658)
I’ll take two to one.
Andrew Gillis (01:04:12.394)
But this is why it’s a good 512. This is why it’s a good matchup because like I said, it’s a clash of styles where it’s like, Steven was saying at the end of JT’s time, it was time for him to go and it was time for all that to happen. But, know, this is not just like, this is the greatest book I conversation, but like, this is also a conversation of just damn, what if.
Stephen Means (01:04:19.451)
is.
Andrew Gillis (01:04:38.336)
Like what like what happens if Braxton doesn’t get hurt like you said Stephen and he gets that that run with the 2014. How does JT get remembered if he doesn’t get hurt against Michigan and gets that run instead of Cardale like he gets a lot of credit for that 2014 or 2014 team but he gets more if he’s the quarterback that you know ends the game against Oregon. I don’t know.
Stephen Means (01:05:02.022)
I know why Stefan decided to wave the flag for JT Barrett. Because he’s a Bears fan and that’s his quarterback coach.
Stefan Krajisnik (01:05:10.958)
That’s right, that’s my coach right there, baby. Stand up. Where’s this conversation? JT Barrett got brought up and done this off season about who’s gonna replace Chip Kelly. Everyone on Twitter seemed to think JT Barrett was coming. He literally got a job in the NFL. Sorry, stayed in the NFL.
Stephen Means (01:05:12.688)
Yeah, this is not this is this is our
Andrew Gillis (01:05:22.847)
JT!
JT Barrett is, for as long, the net, like JT Barrett might be the ceremonial.
former Buckeye alum that we’re gonna throw on watch lists to become a coach at Ohio State because we’re looking to put together a hot board for our website. if, like if,
Stephen Means (01:05:43.857)
Well...
Stefan Krajisnik (01:05:48.492)
If Bowling Green is any good and Ryan Day struggles, I know what name is going to be brought up all the time.
Andrew Gillis (01:05:54.297)
Did you?
Stephen Means (01:05:56.678)
Can I say this though?
Two and a half years over under how many years Billy Fessler is at Ohio State.
Stefan Krajisnik (01:06:10.43)
two and a half more years over under Brian Harline staying at Ohio State.
Stephen Means (01:06:14.48)
Yeah, but that’s not the same.
Stefan Krajisnik (01:06:16.663)
Well, but I think if Brian Harline stays, I think Felser is going to get an OC offer at some point.
Stephen Means (01:06:22.642)
That’s what I’m saying. think, so I would say this. Let’s just say Brian Hartline leaves after this year. This is a whole different conversation. I think if Ryan Day were to hire from within for OC, I think it would be Keenan Bailey before it’s, yeah, before it’s Billy Fessler. And I don’t think it would be either one of them, but it would be Keenan Bailey before it’d be Billy Fessler. So two and a half more years Billy Fessler’s here. I, if Billy Fessler is the,
Stefan Krajisnik (01:06:36.078)
Ian and Bailey, yeah.
Stephen Means (01:06:47.768)
OC at USC or UCLA or Texas or somewhere. Well, not Texas because, sorry, it’s still called its place. But you know what I mean, like a Power 4 program in the next four years, not shocked at all. So two and half more years. Over on.
Stefan Krajisnik (01:07:00.451)
If Julian’s saying it turns out to be what we think it can be, I’m taking the under.
Stephen Means (01:07:05.329)
Andrew?
Andrew Gillis (01:07:06.548)
Yeah, I think it’s under. I think like depending on how this year goes, one and a half is not insane to say under. Like if this year goes well enough, it’s not crazy.
Stephen Means (01:07:08.124)
Okay.
Stephen Means (01:07:16.132)
I would, yeah, I would say he’s.
Stefan Krajisnik (01:07:20.28)
But he’s got experience pre Ohio State.
Stephen Means (01:07:23.44)
He does. He was at Akron and he was he followed Chipka that you see. I would say he is here.
Andrew Gillis (01:07:23.583)
Exactly.
Stephen Means (01:07:30.854)
for the two years that I’m expecting Julian Sand to be the starting court.
Stefan Krajisnik (01:07:36.846)
Yeah, that makes sense.
Stephen Means (01:07:38.802)
And then in 20, he won’t be, I would say right now, I’ll take the under, it’s like he is not still here in 2027 when that season starts.
Stephen Means (01:07:51.536)
JC Verde, quarterback coach.
Andrew Gillis (01:07:55.794)
It depends.
Stefan Krajisnik (01:07:55.968)
Is he in the variable boat of just like, I don’t really want to recruit a quarterback. I’d rather just be in the NFL.
Stephen Means (01:08:00.86)
But he doesn’t, but that’s the difference. He doesn’t have to.
Andrew Gillis (01:08:01.939)
Yeah. It depends. It’s because Kayla Williams take a leap. Because if Kayla Williams takes the leap, he might be like, man, I’m cool. I’m good. We’re OK.
Stephen Means (01:08:09.274)
Yeah, but that’s as much Ben Johnson as it is. That’s been Johnson more than it is him. It would be the same situation of like you’re coaching under offensive and coach who specializes in quarterbacks.
Andrew Gillis (01:08:14.432)
That’s great!
Andrew Gillis (01:08:19.753)
Of course, but if it’s going great, he might just be like, man, it’s going great. I’m cool.
Stephen Means (01:08:23.698)
Sure, maybe all I’m saying is this one. He doesn’t really have to recruit the quarterback. At least not the same way other positions have to recruit because he has to do the grunt work and be on the road, but. It’s Ohio State with Ryan as the head coach. The top quarterbacks in the country when I want to come here outside of once every four years of a cycle because they’ve gotten all the other top quarterbacks. So in 2023 and in 2026 they go. That’s too crowded of a room. That’s just not.
Stefan Krajisnik (01:08:29.646)
That is true.
Andrew Gillis (01:08:30.08)
This was a
Stephen Means (01:08:53.404)
feasible for me. But so he doesn’t have to do that. He played here. He played for Ryan Day and Ryan’s all about trust. Can he trust you? Are you one of his guys? So it’s not like Ryan Day has to that’s part of the reason he gave it to Fessler. Fessler knows how they teach quarterback series because he was here as a QC and as a GA before.
JT Barrett knows how Ryan Day teaches quarterbacks because he’s the first Ohio State quarterback he taught. So, yes, to an extent, yes, I’m this is the variable thing of, man, let me just bring every alumni in here. But I think JT Barrett’s description makes him an intriguing candidate in two years if he would have spent 2022 with the Detroit Lions as an offensive assistant and then he was assistant quarterback coach for two years. And now he’s a full time quarterbacks coach for Chicago. He’ll have
a decent resume to come home, which is why I brought out to wrap this all in a bow, the idea of it felt like when he locked out the door, both sides were ready to move on from each other. I do wonder how he feels about his time at Ohio State and how he feels about how that went and how true nice he was at times. I know for a fact that
CJ Strauss is not always cool with how things went when he was here and the idea that it felt like he was sometimes a scapegoat and the guy they blamed for everything, but it comes with the position of, you know, how they started quarterback, but it’s a rare air. Not many know what that’s like or how you deal with it. And when you leave it, are you all that inclined to want to come deal with it again? Or is that so hyper?
crazy in a way that the only person who deals with it worse than you do is the head coach. Is that just like I don’t want to deal with that anymore because how many quarterbacks are really still around the program?
Stefan Krajisnik (01:10:54.552)
Not many.
Stephen Means (01:10:55.504)
Right. But you’re seeing linebackers and defensive backs and why every other position they all essentially trickle back into the building. I know Justin Fields was at the end of the game last year and CJ Stroud showed up for the Penn State game the year before that. it was not. What will seems like the outlier. But even then it’s like they’re still actively playing football right now. So that’s a little bit more difficult. But I don’t remember.
Andrew Gillis (01:11:12.414)
I bet you will, be around a lot, I think your point stands.
Stephen Means (01:11:23.602)
Justin Fields and CJ Strout popping up at Spring Games three months after they left.
Stephen Means (01:11:31.94)
And Will lived here up until the NFL draft. I don’t think CJ and Justin were doing that. I don’t think Dwayne Haskins was doing that. I don’t think JT Bayer was doing that. So I don’t even know if Braxton Miller was 100 % doing that. Now, Braxton’s from Ohio, so he’s back down and he’s doing stuff, but still, it’s just, when you’re in the Ohio State quarterback and you finally get to leave Ohio State’s quarterback, it does seem like you wanted a reprieval from that for a little bit, because it can be a lot for anybody to have.
deal with. And so because of that, seems like Braxton’s maybe a little bit more around the program. JT Barrett is right now. And I’m wondering if that continues to happen or at some point, if there’s an opening for Ryan Day to bring JT Barrett back in here, whether it’s as an assistant or just a former player to just welcoming back into the building. I wonder if that happens. Get the text 614-350-3315. That’s our second day of our sweet 16. The voting for all of these is currently
going on and they will continue to go on throughout the rest of the weekend. And next week we will get down in the dirty, nitty gritty of the elite eight. We’re going to try to do one matchup a day going forward for the elite eights going forward. Today’s matchups, Eddie George versus Chick Harley, Orlando Pace versus Mike Doss and Chris Fealman versus Ted Gunn Jr. and JT Barrett versus Braxton Miller. That’s the Paul Brown and Urban Meyer regions, the Jim Tressel and Ryan Day regions.
are Archie Griffin versus Howard Hopalong Cassidy, AJ Hawk versus Ezekiel Elliott, Troy Smith versus Jack Tatum, and Jack Sawyer versus James Laurinaitis. 614-350-3315. Those voting are going on right now and will continue throughout the weekend. That’ll wrap up this week’s of pods. Monday, we’re going to take a quick recess from this because there are things that have just been happening around the country that do kind of matter to Ohio State, whether it’s commitments, whether it’s bills being
Proposed to ban Ohio State from noon games to everything else. So we’ll take a quick reprieve from this on Monday and then on Tuesday we’ll pick up right back with this 61435 03315 for Stefan Christen and Andrew Gillis. I’m Stephen Means. That was Buckeye Talk.